D.A. Carson and The Emerging Church
So D.A. Carson from Trinity Seminary in Chicago has been teaching seminars on the Emerging Church. this link is a response to that and he cites my philosophy professor at Cedarville, Dr. David Mills. Which is cool.
You can read Dr. Mills' paper here.
For other opinions you can read Ochuk.
posted by Dan Price @ 5:11 PM
6 Comments:
Every time I start to think of the Church; the postmodern church and the emerging church and the modern church and the pre-modern church and the wrong church. I have mixed feelings of being sick at the stomach and tearing up. I am not the crying type but the church makes me cry, for more than one reason. It may be that I have or been a part of someone’s life who has been burnt by every type of church out there. To be honest I am sick of church no I am dying because of church. Church was killing me. The best thing I did was give it up. Not my faith just my faith or hope in the Church. Usually this response gets many scrims and lost friendships but I had to give up church to save my relationship with God. I am not saying everyone out there should do the same. For example Dan Price and Dr. Mills are both close friends and they are sticking with the Church and I love them and admire them for it. I pray for them. But I had to leave. When I am asked about the “right” way to do church I have my answers but most of them end up in death. Only in death will we experience real church but until then I suggest community. Rorty says that we define, find, and experience truth within a community. If that is correct I need to be in community with a group that is seeking Christ. Now this may seem like church but in my experience I have not been to, work at, or heard of a church that is seeking Christ or truth in a way that I can relate to. For example, Christ says love, focused on those with less than ourselves. I do not know of a church that teaches or gives away more than they spend. Yes, I am bitter, and maybe arguable blind to the “real truth.” Either way I pray that Christ will help me out, and my church friends out as well. I pray for you guys and wish I could have that same good feeling towards church. Well that is my emotional post.
The previous commenter kinda has a point. Would Jesus really attend a church that is more interested in a 10 thousand dollar organ than in helping His people... Just an example of course..But as my own church home changes and is morphing into this "thing" where we worry about our new santuary to be built in a few years. I wonder, couldn't that money be better spent on outreach for those with less than us? Yes we feed the hungry of our city weekly, but that really isn't enough. I'm not leaving the church over it, but it does make you think. By the way, church organs are way less cool than guitars, but that is another subject all together.
A few thoughts. I feel the same kind of sickness in the pit of my gut sometimes. However, I can balance it out with a few thoughts.
First, I believe God has called the church to reach the world. "And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." God must have something in mind.
Second, every single church is screwed up because they are full of humans. That includes every church you read about in the Bible, bar none. Of course, 1 Thess contains nothing negative, but read 2 Thess. That encourages me. God uses jacked up people and churches for his purposes.
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The building thought by the last poster reminded me of something Steve (one of my co-pastors) said about evangelism. He has been at our church since 1977 and has done more one on one evangelism since we built a building in 2001 then all the years before combined. And this is a super evangelistic guy. We have seen hundreds of people make commitments to Christ in the last 3 years. Sometimes the million dollars you pay out for a facility really makes a difference. Not always, so you have to be wise. However, be careful to make sweeping statements about the use of $$. I am as guilty as the next person on this, but I still urge caution.
Good thoughts people. I totally understand where you are coming from Dan, you have not had it easy. If I were you, trusting other people would be a very, very slow process for me. At the same time I am seeing it (church) paying off. The community I'm a part of is a beautiful thing, even though we are jacked up and selfish. you can ask travis, we have our tough times, we hurt each other, we argue, we are insensitive to each other's feelings, but I think pushing through that and being continually faithful to each other is what makes Christianity radical.
Peace and Love
Here is my not emotional post. Guess that is if one can be objective enough to ignore every thing affect the individual.
Noel, I think you right when you said ‘“First, I believe God has called the church to reach the world. “And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.” God must have something in mind.”’ What I question is our current definition of the word Church. Now I know this question can open a long discourse but when I read the NT I cannot find the current definition that we have for the word church. A building, a staff, Sunday school. I mean we can throw all this off and call ourselves “postmodern” but have we started to redefine what the word church means? Maybe what God wanted to reach the world with, was the whole body of Christ. Not to say that the church we have today is not doing this but in my small perspective on the world I have seen more harm than good. Then again I am not objective, this I know. Maybe what our church needs is to redefined its self so that what when we think of church, we will only think of our fellow believers and service to our local community. Guess that takes me back to the idea that we find, define, live out, truth with in communities, I know very postmodern of me.
To your friend who has reached more people for Christ after the building, I find this very encouraging, however, (I am going postmodern once again) was it the building that encouraging his “gospel sharing?” If it was all the better but to many times I find that groups of believers (churches) wait until they have the building or cool music to step out and reach out to people. Maybe if we drop this idea and just started reaching out to those around us getting support from other believers around us we could reach out to thousands among thousands. If we stop building buildings for ourselves and building them for others. Polar thinking, I know but guess that is my current thinking. Though I should be careful with this being a missionary and all. Well sorry for the long post, just find this topic passionable. Well so much for the "not emotional posting."
I'm not sure what kind of churches that you all have attended, but to be a stodgy Reformed guy I will say that you MUST be a part of a church (local body). This is the Spirit's will.
But lets qualify what Church is before you come at me. First, a church is truly a church when it preaches the gospel, because the Church is first and foremost a PRODUCT OF THE GOSPEL. Those who are products of the gospel long to gather together, not divide. Second, the Church is the offspring of the Spirit. Ever heard the term born again? It also applies to communities, not just individuals. And lastly, since the church is people, the quality of the church is directly based on the quality of your Christian life.
This is going to be hard to hear for some, but those who leave the church all together because they felt judged are just as judgmental for rejecting those of Christ's bride who wish to gather together. If we are a people who are a product of the gospel then we are beneficiaries of forgiveness. But this comes at a price... we must be willing to forgive one another if we make any claim to the forgiveness of God.
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